DebConf16/Meetings/2015-10-21

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[edit] Agenda

Apologies:

  • Tammy

[edit] Full IRC log 

18:41 < indiebio> DLange: I spent a bit of time on scribus, not much, and it's too new for me. I have a bit of playing with Inkscape, so I'll rather just go with that for the flyer, unless tamo really wants scribus, and wants help on it...
18:41 < tumbleweed> indiebio: where is this flyer?
18:41 < indiebio> tumbleweed: http://deb.li/flyer16
18:41 < indiebio> and the link to DC15's is in there
18:42 < indiebio> riiiiiiight at the very bottom
18:42 < DLange> indiebio: fine for me. If you need help with inkscape or scribus, ping me and I'll try to help
18:42 < tumbleweed> oh, is there anything to report from the weekend sponsorship meeting?
18:42 < indiebio> I'm *so* chuffed with myself for being able to do the link shortener things. and other things in terminal. watch out world!
18:42 < indiebio> hmmm, yes, bgupta, wendar et al did a great contacting push
18:42 < indiebio> And helped me understand how things work
18:43 < DLange> I'll be travelling a lot during the next three weeks though but I usually have some time in the evenings
18:43 < indiebio> I haven't contacted local sponsers yet, but I did get a debconf email to work (thanks azeem, Ganneff and others), I met with georg who gave a lot of sponsor and marketing leads, and ginggs gave some leads too
18:43 < indiebio> so all rocking on that front!
18:44 < indiebio> and bgupta and wendar also updated the stuff that was in last week's action list
18:44 < indiebio> cool, thanks DLange. I learnt Inkscape when I did my academic poster for the conference I went to after DebConf. crazy stress, but it worked.
18:45 < indiebio> might do the same for Scribus, except that my next deadline is in Word, so I'm doing LibreOffice, and TIL how to do subscripts in Libre Office. \o/
18:45 < indiebio> so tumbleweed,is there anything you would like to know specifically from fundraising side?
18:46 < indiebio> Other than, all peeps please send sponsor ideas to sponsor@debconf.org!!
18:46 < tumbleweed> indiebio: I can ask wendar the things I need to, I think
18:46 < indiebio> yeah.
18:46 < tumbleweed> but basically, if you have any companies we want to contact, but don't have a contact, how do we find that out?
18:46 < indiebio> I love how we all have these insider tracks.
18:47 < indiebio> ginggs said we should get the singles to hook up and then we're all couples. which I somehow found hugely inappropriate :P
18:47 < tumbleweed> :P
18:47 < indiebio> tumbleweed: so the fundraising team is big on git
18:48 < tumbleweed> yes, but it's a private git repo
18:48 < tumbleweed> we don't all have access to it
18:48 < indiebio> I think the best way is that we'll ask the team or if you want anything then email sponsors@d to ask
18:48 < tumbleweed> I'm more saying if the sponsorship team needs anything from us (outsiders) - they'll have to ask
18:48 < indiebio> for the rest, we cold call with what ever info we can find from the web or from asking around
18:48 < indiebio> yes
18:49 < indiebio> in the git there's files for each sponsor with a record of what's happening
18:49 < tumbleweed> yep, but we can't see that :)
18:49 < indiebio> so I think at the moment, if there's no file there, we don't really know if they exist, so the first step is to find leads
18:49 < indiebio> it's a bit weird, I guess we just have to deal with potential duplication
18:50 < indiebio> everyone asking everyone, that is
18:50 < tumbleweed> onward through the agenda?
18:50 < indiebio> and if you want to know what's happening, you have to join the fundraising team - we are seriously short of local people
18:50 < indiebio> but I also sense people want to contribute without having to join the team
18:50 < tumbleweed> aha, that's useful. Send a call to the mailing list?
18:50 < indiebio> so then they should just email
18:50 < indiebio> yes
18:52 < indiebio> uh, ok, so next item - flyer content
18:52 < indiebio> what was useful, tumbleweed? 
18:53 < tumbleweed> saying that you are understaffed with locals
18:53 < tumbleweed> that message has to be spread to the locals
18:54 < indiebio> I've emailed a few times. but from all who I've spoken to, said they're happy to provide leads, but they've shied from "being on the team" which I can understand
18:54 < indiebio> and I'm happy to relay stuff, but would be nice for someone to commit.
18:54 < tumbleweed> yeah, I feel kind of similarly. I don't think I'm a good person to raise sponsorship (not much experience at that) but I do know some people...
18:54 < indiebio> so I think we need new people joining to go there
18:54 < indiebio> anyways. flyer content
18:54 < tumbleweed> looked fine to me
18:54 < tumbleweed> what are we doing with the flyer?
18:55 < indiebio> good.
18:55 < indiebio> So this is for a few functions, and we *may* need different versions
18:55 < DLange> #link https://storm.debian.net/shared/jHYwg6vIHXJ5JNTysD4ygeUY29s6P-e9QyQMPt12X8O
18:55 < indiebio> historically, this gets included in emails to sponsors
18:55 < tumbleweed> DLange: we never actually #startmeetinged
18:55 < indiebio> DLange: ugh, ugly long URL :P
18:55 < DLange> still wanted to provide the link :)
18:56 < tumbleweed> heh, indiebio is picking up our sensibilities
18:56 < indiebio> :D
18:56 < indiebio> so, sent to sponsors. But I also want to print some and leave it in all the places potential attendees and sponsors may happen across it
18:56 < indiebio> marketing, in other words
18:57 < indiebio> tumbleweed: you should SEE me work Debian. Before the end of the year, I'll be a proper geek. (OK, maybe before DebConf16, rather)
18:58 < tumbleweed> watch out, you'll become a DD if you aren't careful
18:58 < indiebio> DD for open hardware. We had the discussion in #debconf.
18:59 < tumbleweed> on to the brochure?
18:59 < tumbleweed> is there anything to discuss there?
19:00 < tumbleweed> oh, do we know where the 350+ number comes from? we were talking about this the other day, and it does seem high
19:02  * DLange needs to leave for ~30 min
19:03 < wendar> 350 was the high estimate
19:03 < indiebio> I don't know, think it was from DC15. We can change it to 300 without the plus - DLange?
19:03 < wendar> 200 was the realistic estimate
19:03 < tumbleweed> my expectation was ~250
19:03 < indiebio> we do say elsewhere we expect 200-350 with an explanation
19:04 < wendar> yeah, somewhere in that range
19:04 < indiebio> DLange changed a type, so he could just change this one too, I hope.
19:04 < indiebio> s/type/typo
19:07 < ginggs> tumbleweed: what's a more realistic number then?
19:07 < ginggs> laaaag
19:07 < nkukard[away]> would you mind just pasting to the ML that the numbers being changed to 250 so I can record anything in the budget thats number based?
19:07 < nkukard[away]> the number I budget on is the maximum we can support before having to re-look if its possible or not
19:07 < nkukard[away]> unless I should keep this at 350?
19:08 < tumbleweed> having a budget for 350 sounds useful
19:08 < tumbleweed> although my expectation is more like 250
19:08 < nkukard[away]> ok, let me work on 350 as the maximum then
19:08 < tumbleweed> I know madduck had a complicated multi-dimentional budget spreadsheet last year
19:08 < tumbleweed> I don't know if we actually need something like that
19:08 < nkukard[away]> tumbleweed, we have a ledger :)
19:08 < nkukard[away]> its already in git
19:08 < tumbleweed> yes, I've seen
19:08 < ginggs> i think 350 also had something to do with accommodation, indiebio?
19:09 < indiebio> nkukard[away]: I would keep the budget at 350, IMHO
19:09 < nkukard[away]> ok :)
19:09 < tumbleweed> ginggs: yes, so, if we book up the entire fuller, that's on that order isn't it?
19:09 < tumbleweed> thath could have been where we got that number
19:09 < nkukard[away]> ginggs, my 350 is absolute maximum before we need to re-evaluate if an increase is feasible or possible :)
19:10 < indiebio> accommodation is 238 for Fuller, if we get Fuller (and I hope we can move on this, like, tomorrow!), but there's not really a limit there, we can spill over to other residences
19:10 < tumbleweed> yeah, but we did want to book the entire thing
19:10 < tumbleweed> because we can reduce the booking later, for free
19:10 < indiebio> Smuts Hall is another 200 or so
19:10 < tumbleweed> ok
19:10 < tumbleweed> anyway, let's move on again
19:10 < ginggs> fwiw, bill randall said they had a much higher turnout than expected for their tomography conference when it was hosted in cape town
19:11 < tumbleweed> yeah, it has the possibility of bringing people for holidays
19:11 < tumbleweed> although that can be a risky proposition in july
19:12 < tumbleweed> next agenda item is debcamp. Nothing to discuss  there except note that we shifted the dates a bit?
19:12 < ginggs> there are less rainy parts of south africa to visit before or after though
19:12 < tumbleweed> that's true
19:13 < indiebio> yeah, just to take note. I sent the signed CMC contract to Belinda, and asked to meet if the signed thing is in order. Then we can chack how much of a mission bookings will be
19:13 < indiebio> I hope it should be easy for people to book in whatever dates they feel like for DebCamp
19:14 < indiebio> and we can accommodate some small number (<100) for whatever dates
19:14 < indiebio> with the understanding they don;t have exclusive use of things'
19:14 < indiebio> but in short: making DebCamp longer
19:15 < indiebio> I'm also entirely not against having tons of people crash at my place if needed, except that my place currently is a collection of soil and steel
19:15 < tumbleweed> indiebio: that sounds normal for DebCamp
19:15 < indiebio> what, the soil and steel?
19:15 < tumbleweed> I mean, video team and some orga people always arrive before the official start date
19:16 < tumbleweed> heh
19:16 < indiebio> I think it would be really easy to accomodate people who want to come earlier. but anyways, this is overthining things. I hope to have more info about accommodation soon
19:16 < tumbleweed> yes
19:16 < indiebio> very. soon.
19:17 < tumbleweed> YES
19:17 < tumbleweed> re https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf16/Artwork - yes I saw this happening at the table behind me, during that CLUG dinner
19:17 < indiebio> so moving on, a huge thanks to highvoltage and tamo for the style guide and artwork. I think larjona is happy, and siri said she's very impressed too
19:18 < indiebio> (siri is doing ShowMeBox stuff)
19:18 < indiebio> When I tried to open a logo in git today it did give an error - was that just me?
19:19 < tumbleweed> which file?
19:19 < indiebio> in media.debconf.org/dc16/logo, the only file
19:22 < indiebio> it says "Error interpreting JPEG image file (Not a JPEG file: starts with 0x89 0x50)"
19:23 -!- pocock [~CGI@2001:1620:b22::2042] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:25 < DLange> logo_white_640x426.jpg: PNG image data, 640 x 426, 8-bit/color RGBA, non-interlaced
19:25 < DLange> whoever named that .jpg :)
19:25 < ginggs> "coverted" to jpg :)
19:25 < ginggs> *converted
19:26 < tumbleweed> lol
19:27 < DLange> b1c8a1b ... check in dc16 logo (white) [martin f. krafft]
19:27 < DLange> *cough*
19:28 < indiebio> I dunno, seemed pretty covert to me
19:29 < DLange> indiebio: git mv logo_white_640x426.jpg logo_white_640x426.png
19:29 < indiebio> damn, why does git pull not just do this?
19:30 < indiebio> you read my mind DLange
19:30 < indiebio> (also, I got distracted, just got my latest stalker. Why. WHY.)
19:30 < tumbleweed> someone needs to do that git mv and then commit
19:30 < indiebio> oh, you mean I have to hcange the thing to png and then do the move thing
19:30 < indiebio> fine.
19:31 < indiebio> file a bug report
19:32 < tumbleweed> ok, moving on?
19:32 < tumbleweed> kanban?
19:32 < tumbleweed> (this is where I have to pretend that I'm not a month behind on debconf email)
19:32 < tumbleweed> (busy fixing that, though, I promise
19:33 < indiebio> I don't really know what's going on there either. larjona sent an email, sounds like kanban received a mixed response.
19:33 < indiebio> maybe DLange can shed light'
19:33 < DLange> tumbleweed: rm ~/Mail/... :) You miss less than you'd think...
19:33 < indiebio> should we use Kanban?
19:34 < tumbleweed> I've always struggled to follow things going on, when they're tracked in kanban only
19:34 < indiebio> whoohoo! I think I fixed the logo in media. 
19:34 < tumbleweed> but using kanban to keep track of things going on could be useful
19:35 < DLange> There's two kanban apps in sandstorm and a third one (kanboard) not in there
19:35 < DLange> all FLOSS
19:35 < DLange> Ganneff would be willing to run kanboard in a VM if we want it
19:35 < Ganneff> ill be running most stuff if debconf needs it
19:35 < Ganneff> and its not insane in requirements or non-free or using non-free services.
19:36 < Ganneff> (like mozilla persona)
19:37 < tumbleweed> :P
19:37 < indiebio> DLange, madducK, Ganneff, but do we want to use it, should we use it, is the question.
19:37 < Ganneff> indiebio: i cant say and stay out of that decision.
19:37 < DLange> no idea, I like it but it's no silver bullet to solve {any|every}thing
19:37  * superfly finally has a usable desktop again
19:38 < tumbleweed> +1 to no silver bullets
19:38 < indiebio> my opinion is, something has to be great to trade off the effort spent in learning how it works.
19:38 < tumbleweed> but I'm perfectly willing to try it
19:38 < indiebio> And in none of my events/projects did people use it.
19:38 < superfly> We use Kanban at work, with pseudo deadlines
19:38 < tumbleweed> Hodgestar: experience from using trello for pycon.za?
19:38 < indiebio> I can understand when it's in your job, it's what you do 9 to 5, but volunteer, people just don't have the time or just don't want to...
19:39 < indiebio> it being project management tools
19:39 < superfly> indiebio: in my humble opinion, it's a lot better than what we're currently doing
19:39 < indiebio> but yeah, if people want to try it, I'll try it
19:39 < superfly> but YMMV
19:40 < indiebio> superfly: sure, great. then can someone/ a group draft/send a mail explaining the next steps please?
19:42 < tumbleweed> next topic?
19:42 < tumbleweed> eep over an hour already
19:42 < indiebio>  I'm taking a loo break quick, three topics remaining.
19:42 < tumbleweed> sorry, I've been distracted by too many other things during this meeting
19:42 < indiebio> me too
19:42 < indiebio> are we updating the team page or is that pending the kanban thing?
19:43 < indiebio> https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf16/LocalTeamRoles
19:43 < superfly> I've been trying to salvage my desktop this evening... and catching up on the avalanche of e-mail
19:47 < tumbleweed> anything to discuss there?
19:47 < indiebio> I don't see any immediate action required on that page
19:47 < tumbleweed> yeah
19:47 < indiebio> ok, January sprint
19:47 < tumbleweed> so, if we want this, we should probably set some dates
19:48 < tumbleweed> would it be useful if we had a sprint
19:48 < tumbleweed> would people be able to dedicate time
19:48 < indiebio> what was the original discussion here again?
19:48 < tumbleweed> it was mostly around tables, in the sun, at DC15
19:48 < indiebio> I'll be around, it's about whoever wants to be here, what dates work for them
19:48 < tumbleweed> that there would be a budget to do this, if we wanted. And at the time, it sounded useful
19:49 < indiebio> I think it was like a Quality Control trip to SA type of thing
19:49 < tumbleweed> so, in the past, there has usually been something like that
19:49 < DLange> flights from Europe are ~600..800€, so it should be well organized *if* you want people there from outside CT
19:49 < tumbleweed> but this seemed like more than that - also a chance to get together and work on things
19:50 < indiebio> maybe we should see who'd be keen, then, from there, what dates, what would the 'schedule' be.
19:50 < tumbleweed> DLange: yeah, that's what it would really be about - people from outside CT
19:50 < indiebio> TBH, as much as it would be nice, I don't think it would justify the cost of the flights.
19:50 < tumbleweed> getting together is a good motivator to get things done. But long travel also leaves one exhausted afterwards :P
19:50 < indiebio> yeah, that too
19:51 < indiebio> I don't see any challenges happening that we can't deal with remotely.
19:51 < indiebio> e.g. via emails and such
19:51 < DLange> me doesn't see any right now either
19:52 < DLange> + / at the beginning of that line
19:52 < tumbleweed> OK
19:52 < tumbleweed> shall we take that to the list?
19:52 < indiebio> I'd rather have people here immediately before DebConf, that's when I melt
19:52 < indiebio> sure
19:53 < tumbleweed> that's when we'll all melt
19:53 < tumbleweed> yeah, I'm intending to be there for that
19:53 < tumbleweed> final topic: move the meeting
19:53 < DLange> indiebio: yes, 1..2 weeks before DebCamp. We can sort anything but accomodation and venue still then.
19:54 < DLange> Even swag etc. if it has to be like that
19:54 < tumbleweed> even talk venues may be shiftable at that point
19:54 < indiebio> accommodation is the crunch one, by a long way
19:55 < indiebio> it's vacation at that time and should be easy if in the unlikely event we need to make other plans
19:55 < DLange> venues for 300ppl and two weeks lead time would be expensive as hell
19:55 < DLange> been there, done that :)
19:55 < tumbleweed> DLange: no, i mean, within the university :)
19:55 < indiebio> yeah, as in outside of the university
19:55 < tumbleweed> they do have a lot of venues...
19:55 < DLange> lucky us :)
19:56 < tumbleweed> anyways
19:56 < indiebio> so, uh, right now is not a good time to say, but the university is fairly fail safe ....
19:56 < indiebio> but it should be
19:56 < tumbleweed> lol
19:56 < indiebio> ginggs says people won't be protesting during vac so we're fine
19:56 < tumbleweed> #feesmustfall
19:57 < tumbleweed> yeah, I think things will be fine in vac
19:57 < tumbleweed> and anyway, that's 6 months away, the current fees crisis will be long over
19:57 < indiebio> the last topic is a bit moot asking people who's here now, and I don't know how to deal with this that doesn't create a lot of to and fro
19:57 < DLange> quite violent the student protests in CT now...
19:57 < indiebio> but I'm not sure if Wednesday is the best day. what to do?
19:57 < indiebio> it's not, actually, DLange
19:57 < indiebio> the mass media, as per usual, is spinning it
19:58 < indiebio> you always have a few people
19:58 < indiebio> and there was one car that tried to drive through the human barrier
19:58 < Ganneff> may i ask why meetbot isnt used? (sorry for just putting it in)
19:58 < indiebio> but in general all reports from people on the ground and reporting independently said it was very peaceful and organised and respectful
19:59 < tumbleweed> Ganneff: I didn't #startmeeting because it was feeling informal. And by the time we'd got through one agenda item, it felt too late :(
19:59 < indiebio> Ganneff: my thinking is MeetBot is for decisions
19:59 < indiebio> I feel that if we MeetBot it, people will feel decisions are taken without them
19:59 < Ganneff> indiebio: no its not. its also for logs and minutes.
19:59 < indiebio> it does mean we don't have lofs
19:59 < tumbleweed> yeah, we should have
19:59 < indiebio> s/lofs/logs
19:59 < indiebio> I've just become so sensitive to people's whining
19:59 < tumbleweed> indiebio: I'd say wait for daylight saving to be all over before polling on meeting times again
20:00 < Ganneff> indiebio: decisions are marked with #agreed or explicitly saying so, letting meetbot take logs of important parts (like this) in channel is important
20:00 < indiebio> Ganneff: noted. will do so in future then. any way yo catch it now?
20:00 < indiebio> s/yo/to
20:00 < tumbleweed> no, meetbot can't retroactively catch logs
20:00 < tumbleweed> but one of us could paste it into a wiki page
20:01 < indiebio> I've been jotting down stuff on the agenda, but it's not the whole log, obviously
20:01 < Ganneff> forget it for today, just do better next time. :)
20:01 < indiebio> yessir Ganneff sir~
20:02 < indiebio> :)
20:02 < indiebio> my fingers are weird
20:02 < indiebio> s/~/!
20:02 < Ganneff> btw, the deb.li link for the agenda tells me "bad gateway"
20:03 < indiebio> tumbleweed: you can do the honours of copying the logs
20:03 < tumbleweed> indiebio: I will do
20:03 < indiebio> Ganneff: larjona said https breaks it, but that seems to be fixed...
20:03 < indiebio> ha, me too
20:03 < indiebio> mine says bad gateway too, that is
20:03 < Ganneff> im on http, its broken
20:03 < indiebio> Ganneff: how about this: https://storm.debian.net/shared/pg75HcKvGVql2SS_PdlitmnPFMUTTYz4_A6mqT_LeDr
20:04 < Ganneff> is that going to this newfangled storm sandbox thing?
20:04 < tumbleweed> yep
20:04 < indiebio> yup
20:04 < indiebio> dogfooding
20:04 < indiebio> yip
20:04  * tumbleweed will go find lunch now, I think
20:04 < Ganneff> oh finally, loaded
20:05 < indiebio> it does seem slow
20:05 < DLange> http://deb.li/p/DC16meet1 is broken as well
20:05 < DLange> so either the docs are wrong or deb.li is kaputt as well
20:05 < Ganneff> oh ugh thats ugly. (the thing, no idea of the content yet :) )
20:05 < indiebio> so larjona would like feedback on sandstorm for paulproteus to improve sandstorm
20:05 < DLange> /p/ should do a preview
20:06 < indiebio> why is it ugly Ganneff, are you just against *any* sort of UI?
20:06 < indiebio> I have been dreaming email alternatives, thanks to you, by the way
20:06 < Ganneff> indiebio: i rather like titanpad, so nope.
20:06 < indiebio> that should be GUI, probably
20:06 < Ganneff> indiebio: and i use emacs, the one and only best ui evar anyways.
20:06 < indiebio> so titanpad gave people issues, apparently
20:07 < highvoltage> Ganneff: do you play organ as well ;p
20:07 < formorer> .oO( which doesn't mean other solutions won't produce other issues ) 
20:07 < Ganneff> highvoltage: nope
20:07 < Ganneff> indiebio: we will always have tools that give SOMEONE issues...
20:08 < Ganneff> also, the way sandstorm seems to use javascript annoys the hell oout of noscript. temp allow doesnt seem to work. tsk
20:08  * indiebio dreams of using emacs. That's like the terminal stuff people were doing at DC15, right? Like, proper geek
20:09 < Ganneff> indiebio: emacs does terminal or gui, with or without mouse usage.
20:09 < DLange> no emacs is old men that refuse to accept progress :)
20:09 < Ganneff> indiebio: and looks different for about every user
20:09 < edrz> well, you don't _have_ to use emacs to live in a terminal emulator.
20:09 < indiebio> Ganneff: yes, some people in -publicity also objected to the JS thing
20:09 < Ganneff> indiebio: js is ok, somewhat, but the way this seems to use it is crap
20:10 < DLange> can the sandstorm apps be used without the sandstorm wrapper visible? Like without the "top bar"=
20:10 < DLange> ?
20:10 < indiebio> that's what I meant. They use JS and it didn't work for them
20:10 < indiebio> DLange, Ganneff: pleasae direct this feedback to larjona
20:11 < indiebio> I like it, but I don't mind going back to titanpad or something else. all of this is greek to me in either case
20:11 < indiebio> or to paulproteus, or join #sandstorm on Freenode directly
20:11 < Ganneff> 26eb268f1701200f9e4f74a5cc5b4144.storm.debian.net (1)
20:11 < DLange> I think it is good to have options. Titanpad is down sometimes and I have no clue who's running that anyways, so...
20:11 < Ganneff> idiotic, a new "subdomain" for every damn request
20:11 < Ganneff> wtf
20:12 < indiebio> lols. you bunch are all grumpy old men, from where I'm standing :P
20:12 < DLange> +1
20:12 < Ganneff> DLange: debian people
20:12 < highvoltage> Ganneff: that subdomain for every request annoyed me too with my sandstorm deployment
20:12 < DLange> old grumpy debian people
20:12 < Ganneff> highvoltage: that is really idiotic
20:13 < highvoltage> Ganneff: I agree, they claim to have done it for security.
20:13 < Ganneff> bullsh*t i say
20:13 < DLange> perhaps somebody should tell the devs about cache-pragmas in HTTP headers...
20:13 < highvoltage> Me too. No other web service needs it.
20:13 < indiebio> Ha! IT's this that got me hooked: "Emacs helps you be productive by providing an integrated environment for many different kinds of tasks" people were doing all these things and it was all in terminal jobbies. That was so cool
20:13 < highvoltage> (well, at least plenty of sane ones don't)
20:13 < Ganneff> make it a new subdomain for every user (however you detect them)
20:13 < indiebio> I think the meeting bit is over now
20:13  * indiebio quietly slinks away, to let the old minds grumble
20:14  * Ganneff refuses to use that thing
20:14 < highvoltage> When we removed emacs in the tuXlabs we received faxes from the teachers from a few schools who complained
20:14 < Ganneff> bah
20:14 < highvoltage> the kids loved emacs because of the psychologist
20:14 < indiebio> highvoltage: huh?
20:14 < indiebio> "the kids loved emacs because of the psychologist" ???
20:15 < highvoltage> emacs has a built-in (and very basic) AI that you can talk to
20:15 < marga> And it's sort of funny (I guess if you are not a psychologist yourself)
20:15 < highvoltage> kids used it for everything from relationship advice to questions on homework assignments (for which it was neither very useful)
20:15 < indiebio> Ganneff: try this one then, only minor changes and we'll go back to that, it's ok, calm down : https://debconf16-capetown.titanpad.com/2
20:16 < indiebio> well, all psychologists do is ask 'and how do you feel about that', don't they ;)
20:16 < Ganneff> indiebio: im perfectly calm.
20:16 < indiebio> Ganneff: just messing with ya ;)
20:16 < Ganneff> indiebio: and if people prefer that sandstorm sh*t more, use it.
20:17 < indiebio> no preferences have been indicated as yet
20:17 < indiebio> but sandstorm is in debian and titanpad isn't, apparently
20:17  * Ganneff indicates: whatever, but sane it must be, and sandstorm isnt sane.
20:17 < indiebio> I do think they need the feedback though, so don't just grumble about it here - tell them!
20:17 < Ganneff> indiebio: well, we dont run either instance, so packaged or not doesnt matter
20:17 < formorer> formorer@lisa ~ % rmadison sandstorm
20:17 < formorer> formorer@lisa ~ % 
20:17 < Ganneff> unless we suddenly propose that debconf.org gains an instance of it
20:18 < indiebio> I dunno
20:19 < Ganneff> which, currently, i dont really see the need for.
20:19 < Ganneff> brb
20:19 < indiebio> so I added the minor changed to the titanpad as well, Ganneff
20:21 < edrz> a text editor with a pysychologist?
20:21 < DLange> and an irc client
20:21 < indiebio> it's all you really need
20:22 < DLange> and a gazillion other useless stuff
20:22 < indiebio> it's like an 8-ball, right?
20:22 < DLange> that's in there as well, I'm sure
20:23 < DLange> only a four key-combo that's insanely hard to remember to call the 8-ball
20:23 < highvoltage> that's why emacs users look like they're playing chords on an organ when using emacs.
20:24 < indiebio> highvoltage: lol. you just destroyed my aspirations of 'doing stuff like a geek on the terminal'
20:25 < highvoltage> how so? geeks use vim.
20:25 < indiebio> 'K peeps, I'm off to bed soon. check y'all tomorrow at 15:00 UTC when I'm spamming local sponsor potentials
20:25  * indiebio researches vim
20:26 < Ganneff> ive got all but web and irc and shell in emacs
20:26 < indiebio> are we just meta-discussing text editors?
20:26 < highvoltage> vimtutor or if that's too boring, http://vim-adventures.com/ and http://www.openvim.com/
20:26 < Ganneff> any kind of text, mail, todo, ...
20:27 < Ganneff> vim is for people who like an editor that has 2 modes: 1. beep. 2. destroy files.
20:27 < highvoltage> Ganneff: oh you make it sound even cooler than it is
20:28 < DLange> Ganneff: that line goes into my quote file!
20:29 < indiebio> bwahaha
20:29 < Ganneff> highvoltage: emacs or the beepy destroyer of files?
20:30  * indiebio just got lost playing vim-adventures
20:30 < indiebio> my hand is cramping
20:30 < highvoltage> Ganneff: beepy destroyer
20:30  * tumbleweed sees there's been a productive post-meeting discussion :P
20:30 < Ganneff> also, vim is for people who like to restart their editor every other second, while emacs runs forever.
20:31 < jcristau> that way they get the same runtime vs startup time ratio?
20:31 < highvoltage> Ganneff: well that's what you get when you use init=/usr/bin/emacs.
20:31 < indiebio> I think I'm going with emacs, then
20:31 < Ganneff> my emacs, with LOADS of settings, loads in less than 10 seconds...
20:32 < indiebio> simple is good
20:32  * DLange -> afk, I'm travelling from tomorrow, I read backlogs but expect me to not be around every day
20:33 < DLange> time vim -cq .bashrc
20:33 < DLange>  real0m0.017s
20:34 < DLange> 10 seconds it what my system takes to boot, but then emacs is an OS so that may be fine then
20:35 < Ganneff> DLange: so what? not really measurable time here too, as noone sane does start an editor just for editing a file.
20:35 < indiebio> safe travels DLange!
20:35 < Ganneff> one just tells emacs to open a new frame for it. silly boy
20:35 < Ganneff> (which is also how "bigger" stuff to edit on webpages ends up in my emacs)
20:37 < Ganneff> ohwell, this is #debconf-team, not #debconf-everyoneknowsthatemacsisbetteranyways, so lets stop, emacs wins no matter what.
20:43 < edrz> indiebio: choice of editors is a religious issue.
20:43 < edrz> http://catb.org/jargon/html/R/religious-issues.html
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