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[edit] Meeting: DebConf16 Cape Town bid -- 2014-11-05

Held at 2014-11-05T19:24:30Z in #debconf16-capetown on oftc. Convened by tumbleweed.

[edit] Attendees

  • ginggs
  • drnlm
  • indiebio
  • madduck
  • tumbleweed
  • wendar
  • nattie

[edit] Minutes

[edit] Next steps

We need to work our way through the rest of LocationCheckList and make sure our bid is covering all the main points.

[edit] Venue options

It still seems that UCT is the preferred venue. Upper campus is looking like the best option, as we don't have pricing for Breakwater campus, yet. Bernelle will prod them.

Approval was obtained from the Dean of Engineering, to apply for accommodation, thanks Graham.

We still need catering prices for UCT. Graham has contacts.

Other venues are all way over budget, right now. River Club might be a good backup, non-UCT venue. We're still parsing their quote.

[edit] Meeting schedule

We'll continue to meet once a week, until the end of the month. The new meeting time is 21:30 SAST (19:30 UTC) on Wednesdays.

[edit] Automated Minutes

19:24:30 Meeting started
19:46:39 agreed: indiebio will attempt to get a quote out of Breakwater campus (tumbleweed)
20:16:21 Meeting ended

[edit] Full log

19:24:30 <tumbleweed> tibid: start meeting about DebConf16 Cape Town bid
19:24:30 * tibid gets out his memo-pad and cracks his knuckles
19:24:33 <nattie> madduck: if you have concrete bits you'd like to cover, say, and we'll do that before you wander off
19:24:45 * indiebio waves at wendar
19:24:52 * wendar waves back
19:24:52 <tumbleweed> madduck: the stage is yours
19:24:59 <madduck> uh, not what I had intended! ;)
19:25:06 <nattie> tough :)
19:25:15 <indiebio> no time for stage fright now, mr pony.
19:25:19 <madduck> but to answer indiebio, I think the best way forward now is to take a stab at the LocationChecklist
19:25:27 <madduck> for a week or 10 days
19:25:29 <tumbleweed> madduck: so, I've been doing that a bit for our venues
19:25:34 <madduck> and then turn that into a nice wiki page
19:25:35 <tumbleweed> but that's only been the venue specific things
19:25:39 <tumbleweed> not overall city, yet
19:25:42 <indiebio> so tumbleweed did two already - both for UCT, and both I can't get hold of right now
19:25:58 <madduck> how many parallel bids do you want to submit?
19:25:58 <tumbleweed>
19:26:08 <madduck> or one bid with a main venue and a backup?
19:26:14 <nattie> the latter, i think
19:26:21 <nattie> we're not going the parallel route AFAIK
19:26:21 <tumbleweed> that was our plan, I think
19:26:23 <madduck> i think that's better too
19:26:24 <nattie> since it's all one town
19:26:36 <indiebio> to be honest, reading the debconf reports, I think with South African internet we pretty much have to stick to a university...
19:26:43 <madduck> it's just helpful not to tell the venues that they are ranked so that you can negotiate in terms of price
19:26:45 <nattie> i think the goal is to narrow to 1 main contender and one or two backups
19:26:47 <madduck> if necessary
19:26:56 <tumbleweed> indiebio: it is a big complication, yes. But I don't think insurmountable
19:27:03 <tumbleweed> indiebio: e.g. the stadium had fibre
19:27:10 <tumbleweed> indiebio: and presumably technopark does
19:27:41 <indiebio> OK, but from reading that I genuinely feel UCT Engineering is my favourite, by a long way.
19:27:57 <indiebio> And from what I gather from wendar's analysis, all the others score about the same on everything
19:28:12 <wendar> we still don't know about Breakwater
19:28:19 <tumbleweed> we do need breakwater prices, yes
19:28:20 <indiebio> yes, annoying.
19:28:30 <wendar> But, I'd put UCT main campus above everything else we've got
19:28:31 <nattie> i like the idea of Breakwater, but without prices... can someone prod?
19:28:43 <tumbleweed> but UCT is almost certainly going to be the cheapest, has amazing internet, and isn't *bad* by any other metric
19:29:02 <wendar> the catering situation is unclear on UCT main campus
19:29:05 <nattie> there's just the date constraint there
19:29:55 <wendar> yeah, and the date constraint, though we've certainly done July before
19:30:02 <indiebio> if we go with UCT, the dfates are likely to be 6-16 July
19:30:34 <indiebio> re prodding, I've been emailing, will try calling when I next get a chance.
19:30:38 <tumbleweed> I think Breakwater might have date constraints, too
19:30:53 <tumbleweed> I saw something about some students living in the hotel, during courses
19:31:31 <madduck> date constraints aren't such a big deal; we had them too for dc15, quite strict even
19:31:40 <madduck> if you know well in advance.
19:31:57 <indiebio> are we still considering other venues, seriously?
19:32:23 <indiebio> madduck according to wendar's budgets, the venues are all currently way over budget, is that correct wendar?
19:32:28 <tumbleweed> not unless we can get significantly better prices out of them
19:32:32 <madduck> so my suggestion would be to flesh out the LocationChecklist for both venues, or one document with two answers to each. And then to take our Bid page, copy it and start melding it into .za form
19:32:33 <tumbleweed> which we haven't tried to do
19:32:41 <drnlm> Are we confident of our relationship with UCT's IT people, since that's been a sticky point in the past?
19:32:42 <indiebio> yeah, this is just initial estimates...
19:32:47 <madduck> wendar: can I hear some numbers?
19:32:52 <wendar> indiebio: I wouldn't say way over budget, they all seem pretty reasonable
19:32:59 <tumbleweed> drnlm: yeah, I am a bit scared about that. indiebio seems to have had good experience with tedx, though
19:33:00 <wendar> madduck: they're in the spreadsheet
19:33:04 <madduck> in Git?
19:33:05 <indiebio> drnlm, I feel confident, but my event was a slightly different context.
19:33:11 <wendar> madduck: yes, in git
19:33:36 <indiebio> ginngs also knows the infrastructure and the people - a big plus
19:33:40 <wendar> debconf16_cost_comparison.ods
19:34:19 <ginggs> yeah, ICTS have gotten better over the years
19:34:21 <wendar> indiebio: I mean, a free venue is nice when we're looking at higher than average travel costs. But certainly not required.
19:34:29 <tumbleweed> indiebio: that doesn't mean we aren't going to have a lot of trouble with them (I knew them, and fought them for years :P )
19:34:37 <wendar> indiebio: Do we know for sure that UCT main campus would be free?
19:34:46 <madduck> wendar: so with 300 people, that's 31k €/day for venue and food?
19:34:59 <wendar> not per day
19:35:05 <madduck> per 5 days?
19:35:16 <indiebio> wendar, not 100%, but I'd say... 80% or even 90%. There may be tiny costs...
19:35:42 <indiebio> But the subject matter can be argued to be academic, so I feel confident we can argue for free/in-kind sponsorship.
19:35:57 <wendar> madduck: the totals say what they're fore
19:35:59 <wendar> for
19:36:10 <indiebio> I have had very good support from UCT, even for things that were only vaguely related to academics
19:36:23 <wendar> 50 for 5 days, 200 for 5 days, and 300 for 5 days
19:36:57 <wendar> 50 is for DebCamp, and the other two cover two ends of our estimate range
19:37:03 <madduck> i had an old file sorry
19:37:04 <indiebio> wendar, I think Jameson Hall would be about R5000 per day, it gets managed a little differently, should we want to use that...
19:37:55 <nattie> would that be for plenaries?
19:38:02 <wendar> indiebio: we haven't included Jameson Hall, but I'll note that if we expand the set
19:38:14 <wendar> nattie: we have closer options for plenaries
19:38:20 <madduck> so those prices don't scare me tbh
19:38:25 <nattie> is that the one with the organ?
19:38:28 <madduck> i don't know what local sponsorship would be like though
19:38:29 <indiebio> Jameson seats 1000, and LEslie social 348 or similar... I think we were thinking Jameson for Debian day
19:38:29 <tumbleweed> nattie: yeah, it wouldn't really be for anything else. It's huge
19:38:35 <tumbleweed> nattie: no, the organ was in the Baxter complex
19:38:39 <nattie> oh, right.
19:38:45 <madduck> 2k€/day for the venue isn't a whole lot.
19:38:51 * nattie thinks we should have the place with the organ, even if it's not broken ;)
19:38:54 <wendar> madduck: yeah, they're reasonably in the range
19:39:01 <madduck> and given that I saw that accomodation+food will be more in the order of 20€/day/person
19:39:04 <madduck> that should be just fine
19:39:05 <indiebio> I haven't even looked at Baxter again. think the vibe is not what we want.
19:41:47 <wendar> indiebio: Do you think it'd be possible to get catering quotes for UCT main campus dorms?
19:42:09 <wendar> Oh, I guess that's dorms and coffee breaks.
19:42:25 <wendar> If we do breakfast and lunch in the dormitory dining hall.
19:42:29 <indiebio> I've been having trouble to get a reply from the relevant people, but ginngs met with the dean today and got the application form signed, so maybe this means we can get more ifo.
19:42:42 <wendar> sweet! thanks ginngs
19:42:42 <tumbleweed> ah, great
19:42:53 <indiebio> also, it's year-end for the students here, so I think the people are quite busy right now...
19:43:06 <indiebio> ah, ginggs.
19:43:52 <indiebio> I emailed a caterer who's van I see on campus a lot today, will try to get a price there, and I think ginggs is looking into the movie caterers as well, now that his exams are done.
19:44:00 <indiebio> whose. grammar.
19:44:27 <tumbleweed> do we try and have a discussion with someone in ICTS, yet? or leave it for later?
19:44:40 <wendar> great, yeah the catering options are useful
19:44:57 <ginggs> tumbleweed: i think leave it for later
19:46:12 <tumbleweed> ok, it feels like we've reached the end of a discussion
19:46:23 <indiebio> tumbleweed, please action that I prod breakwater
19:46:39 <tumbleweed> tibid: agreed indiebio will attempt to get a quote out of Breakwater campus
19:46:39 <tibid> Agreed: indiebio will attempt to get a quote out of Breakwater campus
19:47:28 <tumbleweed> so, madduck, your agenda item was about the LocationCheckList
19:47:29 <madduck> do we know anything from the other bid teams?
19:47:43 <nattie> i've not seen anything
19:47:44 <tumbleweed> they seem to have been quiet on the wiki
19:47:47 <wendar> I haven't heard, but I'm not on their mailing lists
19:47:56 <tumbleweed> do they have any?
19:47:58 <madduck> tumbleweed: I see that there's been work done already and it's looking good. The larger font items are more important than the smaller one
19:48:01 <madduck> s
19:48:07 <wendar> tumbleweed: not sure
19:48:08 <madduck> so we should prioritise those
19:48:13 <tumbleweed>
19:48:22 <madduck> i have also not seen anything near as advanced as what you have
19:48:36 <madduck> which is a good sign, but it can also be a bad surprise
19:48:49 <madduck> especially the french like to have their cabals and non-public stuff ;)
19:48:53 <tumbleweed> :P
19:48:57 <madduck> so we should not rest
19:49:13 <madduck> but I think you guys are very well on track
19:49:15 <tumbleweed> yeah, even without competition, there's a long road ahead
19:49:27 <indiebio> well, either way I've been having fun. I also see that highvoltage (I think?) mentioned in a report Cape Town in 2018 or 2020, so... it'll work out either way.
19:49:42 <indiebio> Having said that, 2016 would be reeaaaallly nice for me
19:50:10 <nattie> so, if this time isn't successful, would there be interest in trying 2 or 4 years later?
19:50:19 <wendar> I would be
19:50:22 <nattie> (*If*)
19:50:35 <tumbleweed> hell yes
19:50:42 <nattie> so would i
19:50:42 <madduck> i think you guys will have to try hard not to win this time
19:50:47 <tumbleweed> :P
19:50:55 <tumbleweed> indiebio, ginggs, confluency: There are some UCT specific things in the location checklists, that need some on-the-ground checking
19:51:01 <madduck> but it's great to see that it wouldn't be the end
19:51:03 <drnlm> Actually organising conferences is what tends to burn people out - merely planning to run one is a lot easier
19:51:05 <wendar> I mean, a lot of the hard work of making a bid would already be done anyway. It'd just be a time-delay on actual hosting.
19:52:05 <indiebio> tumbleweed, I stand under correction, but a quick eyeball - a lot of those I was waiting on a contact for the venues... so I'm a bit stuck for the momet.
19:52:11 <indiebio> also just really busy :/
19:52:20 <tumbleweed> indiebio: yeah
19:52:59 <tumbleweed> but anything that we can find out independantly, we should
19:53:21 <indiebio> drnlm: true, been there done that, but can also be a really invigorating experience.
19:54:07 <madduck> it would be really advisable to get some sort of quote from a caterer who can cater to all kinds of dietary preferences
19:54:17 <indiebio> tumbleweed: sure. I think ginggs and I should do a lunchtime walk soonish.
19:54:32 <madduck> having a very rough understanding of daily costs is going to help a lot
19:54:56 <madduck> also, a list of local sponsors, no need to contact, just breadth-search…
19:54:57 <indiebio> OK, so catering. Should we get random quotes? Generally I think food in the Cape is good, if you're going for hearty meals.
19:55:17 <madduck> indiebio: sure, random quotes. don't need more than 2 for sure
19:55:19 <tumbleweed> a quote would give us a starting point for the budget
19:55:20 <indiebio> I don't have any contacts, so other peeps can also help here with recommendations, random searches and whatnot.
19:55:32 <madduck> but you will need to cater for veg/vegan/gluten-free
19:55:47 <indiebio> 'K, I'll also keep buggin ginggs to get his movie feeders contacted.
19:56:02 <indiebio> yep, I saw that from the reports - lots of emphasis on the food!
19:56:13 <madduck> we are a picky bunch
19:56:33 <tumbleweed> and we should get the official res caterer's quote (although I've never heard anything good about their food)
19:56:40 <nattie> no, we just have a decent sense of self-preservation
19:56:41 <madduck> if i have my way at dc15, it'll be fun as we'll have a veg default and ask people to identify themselves as meat-needers ;)
19:56:42 <nattie> (re food)
19:56:53 <indiebio> Cape Town is hippie and hipster ville, they have all sorts of crazy food requirements. The difference between them and debian folk is that debian devs actually do stuff. /bitch
19:57:07 <indiebio> madduck, I actually think that's a good option.
19:57:11 <madduck> sure
19:57:12 <nattie> oh, is cape town like the portland of south africa?
19:57:12 <tumbleweed> Debian has people who make a noise and don't do anything, too :)
19:57:12 <madduck> ;)
19:57:18 <indiebio> probably
19:57:19 <tumbleweed> nattie: pretty much
19:57:26 <madduck> sounds awesome
19:57:27 <tumbleweed> but with surfing, too
19:57:29 <nattie> tumbleweed: ah, that's why you looked so at home :)
19:57:35 <indiebio> I can be very nice until I encounter loafers. be warned.
19:58:01 <madduck> and yes, you should have 10Mbit reliable networking *at the very least*
19:58:07 <ginggs> cape town is in south africa, your choice is beef or cow
19:58:17 <tumbleweed> madduck: UCT gets us way more than that
19:58:20 <madduck> good
19:58:21 <tumbleweed> although they won't give us guarantees
19:58:35 <madduck> we don't need guarantees really
19:58:45 <madduck> it'll all work, and if not, then it does not.
19:58:51 <madduck> but we want to make sure it could work ;)
19:59:05 <madduck> (or somesuch)
19:59:09 <indiebio> rubbish ginggs, that's just your house
19:59:12 <madduck> we are a volunteer-run, free conf after all
19:59:17 <ginggs>
19:59:26 <madduck> ginggs: i'll come for dinner one night. your choice of beef or cow ;)
19:59:39 <indiebio> NO! people, that is not how we are. dammit ginggs, we actually want to host debconf16, you know?!
20:00:38 <madduck> indiebio: no worries, there is a lot of humour around debconf and orga
20:00:39 <ginggs> madduck: last I heard we have 550Mbit international bandwidth
20:00:47 <tumbleweed> oh, I thought it was a gig
20:00:51 <drnlm> If we're going with one main bid and a backup venue, should we try flesh a non-UCT option as the backup option?
20:00:51 <wendar> indiebio: A large group of people will be thrilled by the beef or cow. :)
20:00:55 * madduck fades out now
20:01:00 <madduck> highlight me if there is more
20:01:19 <tumbleweed> drnlm: that was what I was thinking, before. Breakwater as main, something else, say technopark as backup
20:01:19 <wendar> only a few of us are dietary weirdos (I'm probably the weirdest)
20:01:22 <ginggs> madduck: when the students aren't there on youtube and facebook, we'll have that mostly to ourselves
20:01:34 <tumbleweed> drnlm: and Upper campus as a the easy-to-book, free backup
20:02:18 <tumbleweed> but without pricing from breakwater, I've also been seeing upper campus as the primary venue
20:02:18 <indiebio> 'K bye madduck, thanks for the help! :)
20:02:35 <indiebio> I'm still thinking river club as backup...
20:02:43 <tumbleweed> their prices were insane (and confused)
20:02:50 <tumbleweed> but I do like it an an option
20:03:00 <nattie> we still haven't clarified their quote, have we?
20:03:00 <indiebio> yes, but I think we can streamline it, for sure
20:03:09 <wendar> tumbleweed: nod, I've started thinking upper campus as primary, breakwater as first backup (if pricing is okay), and something like techno park as second backup
20:03:17 <indiebio> agree with wendar
20:03:38 <indiebio> we're going to book uct upper anyways, if it's free.
20:03:42 <tumbleweed> UCT is just so easy
20:03:52 <indiebio> so it can be a back up until very last minute or even last day...
20:04:08 <wendar> yeah, and if we can afford to bus people out in the evenings, then it's even quite nicely located
20:04:29 <wendar> actually, there's more in walking distance than I thought at first too
20:04:57 <tumbleweed> it is quite a walk, though
20:05:06 <tumbleweed> especially uphill, when you're tired
20:05:12 <wendar> yeah
20:05:27 <wendar> the advantage of bussing, is we can pick a different destination on various nights
20:05:56 <ginggs> surely we can get Jammie Shuttle passes for conference delegates?
20:06:02 <wendar> waterfront, beach, etc...
20:06:07 <tumbleweed> I would hope so. But do they run during vac?
20:06:35 <wendar> and how late in the evening?
20:06:43 <wendar> would be ideal if it works, though
20:07:09 <tumbleweed> ok, we're drifting again
20:07:18 <tumbleweed> I think we've about covered the 2nd agenda item
20:07:25 <tumbleweed> 3rd maybe? wendar?
20:07:48 <wendar> which was the 3rd?
20:07:52 <tumbleweed> * Allison to give feedback from venue price comparisons, the sheet is on
20:07:56 <tumbleweed> git I believe.
20:08:04 <wendar> yeah, in git
20:08:08 <tumbleweed> 4th got mentioned in passing
20:08:12 <wendar> still pending some we don't have prices for
20:08:33 <indiebio> re jammie, we'll have to pay, and they might not exist, but we can probably make some sort of plan
20:08:40 <tumbleweed> and we need clarification for river club
20:08:50 <tumbleweed> or did that happen?
20:09:45 <nattie> we just need to beware of not promising magic buses
20:09:46 <indiebio> huh? clarification for what? sorry, fading...
20:09:47 <wendar> we did get some feedback from river club
20:09:52 <tumbleweed> ok
20:09:53 <nattie> oh, we did?
20:09:56 <wendar> (I was just checking email)
20:10:20 <tumbleweed> did the feedback make it into the spreadsheet?
20:10:22 <wendar> it didn't answer all our questions, but most
20:10:46 <wendar> just forwarded to list
20:11:21 <wendar> let's see, no not in the spreadsheet yet
20:11:49 <wendar> I know, because the estimates are still using the League Room, which they say is not available any more
20:11:57 <tumbleweed> ok
20:13:18 <wendar> okay, I've replaced it with the new Berg room, but will need pricing and sizing for it
20:13:30 <wendar> (I'll commit after meeting)
20:13:33 <tumbleweed> cool
20:13:39 <tumbleweed> anything else before we close?
20:13:47 <tumbleweed> what do we want to get done over the next week?
20:13:56 <tumbleweed> I want to hack on location checklist stuff a bit more
20:14:04 <tumbleweed> and I think get all the non-venue-specific bits into the man page
20:14:44 <nattie> s/man/main/ ?
20:15:13 <tumbleweed> correct
20:16:18 <tumbleweed> ok, I guess nothing else
20:16:21 <tumbleweed> tibid: end meeting

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